AnsweRED Podcast Episode 24 — Behind Game Dev Hiring — and a New Podcast Host

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.

Paweł B: Hello and welcome to the AnsweRED podcast. My name is Paweł Burza and I am joined by my friend and co-host Sebastian Kalemba.

Sebastian: Hello everyone. Today we have the 24th podcast and we're kind of ending a cycle. We're going to talk about everything around recruitment. So we invited Ania Fronckiel who is our Recruitment and Employer Branding Director, and also Paweł Mielniczuk who is an Art Director from Project Hadar.

Paweł B: It's going to be an amazing episode. I can't wait for it. So let's meet our guests. All right. Ania, Paweł. Welcome to the podcast. Paweł, returning guest once again. Ania for the very first time, we're going to talk recruitment and Sebastian, kick us off with a nice starter question.

Sebastian: Yeah, actually, I'm super happy that we are doing it together today, as I believe that everything at RED starts from recruitment, actually, you know, like, that's the very first moment. And it is a setup. It is actually a foundation of what is ahead of all of us. And I believe that there's tons of things that we can discuss today. And, yeah, like, let's start it up. Let's start from all about recruitment. But, you know, I think we should start from Ania.

Ania: Yeah, I can start. It's very nice to be here and yeah, that's right. Recruitment is the first step to get to RED. And I'm doing that for 10 years here, so already got some experience and some nice stories about it. But it's super engaging and super rewarding. And I must say that there is no biggest luck and, you know, happiness if you can see the people that get through the whole recruitment steps and the whole process then seeing them on the corridors, and I must say from my personal perspective, as I'm not recruiting, so, you know, actively since some time, but, my team is. And we have this, you all know we have this little tradition that on our Christmas party, we have this memorable video about people that are celebrating five, 10, 15 and more years in CDPR. And I must say that this is my favorite time of the year, because even though I do not recruit for such a long time actively I stand and watch the movie and I see the people that were on the first interview as juniors and the starters, internship, whatever. And they're still here. And I see the faces, I see they grow and you know that they're reaching the next and next level. And now they are leads, seniors, experts, changing projects, getting the next milestone. So this is so much rewarding. And yeah, sometimes we're catching on the corridors. I'm like, hey, do you remember the first interview? So that's super nice and amazing.

Paweł B: I'm just going to say it's not a coincidence that we're wearing these jackets like we all are fully— and these are anniversary jackets. So, you know, we get these after 10 years in the company for Ania and for me, it's actually 10 years in RED, which is an incredible milestone, a decade in one place, which I think the younger version of me wouldn't anticipate me staying in one place for such a long time. But CDPR draws in all these crazy, wild people, and I think we're good examples of that. So that's why we're wearing the same jacket. So people know, like, what's up?

Sebastian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, let's let's follow that. Because I believe what you said, Ania was like, perfect entry. And I'm super grateful that all of us are sitting here because I believe we all together cover the entire two sides of the same coin of what recruitment really is, because we also have Paweł here. And Paweł, like you, travel around the world, you co-kind of created, and you're the director of Promised Land Art Festival. The portfolio reviews is a part of it, and from one side we have Ania, who actually realized entire process of recruitment, sets it up, you know, makes this environment like super friendly, but also not only for candidates but also for you, for us, because we are also, all of us take active part in the recruitment process.

Ania: Crucial.

Sebastian: And yeah, it is crucial. Like we should add to each other, right?

Ania: Yes.

Sebastian: Like this is it. And as as Ania already provided a great starter from from Ania's perspective. What's your perspective when it comes to recruitment?

Paweł M: Um, well, I joined the company quite a while ago, when I joined - in 2006.

Sebastian: Dusty.

Paweł M: They were like—

Sebastian: Very old jacket.

Paweł M: There were like 50 people in the company. So it's, you know, through all this time observing how the teams were growing, you know, recruiting, building teams, building new projects, releasing them, seeing people come and go, you know, all this process, now we're over 1000 people company, right? Spread across multiple studios, two continents. So it was, you know, just just a pleasure to observe it. And all of that happened because of recruitment, because of people building the company, creating the projects, you know, so everything starts there.

Ania: But I would add to that because what you mentioned, this is not a very typical setup that we have on the market in the game dev industry. So in RED we always were focused on first candidate experience, not only candidate that actually got to the RED, but also candidates that didn't get to RED, that they have the same amazing experience through the process, get the feedback. And we have amazing really stories about that people getting back, you know, taking the feedback and now they're working with us. So that's amazing. But also that we have hiring managers really actively taking part in the recruitment process. This is not very typical. And we're working as partners, unison in partners. Recruiter and a hiring manager really working hand in hand and supporting each other from behavioral interviews, from technical interviews and following the whole process together. And this is super important. And I think giving like the bigger spectrum of view for the candidate, how actually work in RED looks like, getting this feeling, this vibe. This is how actually the work looks.

Sebastian: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Paweł B: I like it that you said about the support. I remember I was recruiting for my very first time for a community position for GWENT. So someone who joined my team and I was surprised by the support that I got before any interview or before going through, like, you know, the CVs even and stuff like that. I got so much support. I was surprised that you're really working hand in hand with the hiring manager and you're like, just yeah, so before we go into any type of interview, like we sync on things, we discuss things and we also discuss after. It's like the whole process is so well mapped out. I was surprised by, you know, the support that I got, which I think is super crucial because of course we're in our day to day, we're doing our tasks and stuff like that, but then you're kind of taken out of that and you need to kind of, you know, assess the person that you're talking with and you get you're fully supported throughout the whole process, which was incredible.

Paweł M: It's also important that, you know, hiring is a difficult process. You have to learn that, of course, you know, you have this like one, few meetings, maybe sometimes onsite meeting, depending on the position that you have to evaluate if the person will fit the team, how this person will behave, collaborate to everyone on long term and it's super hard and challenging. And that's why the support of hiring manager is super, super important. It's also good that for example, after the recruitment is done, we are doing this postmortem. You know what went wrong, what went right, what questions were okay. You know how we can improve the process the next time is also super valuable.

Ania: We're going even further right now because we're trying to learn on the previous recruitments all the time. So as a recruitment team, we also after we have already our amazing employee and we gathering information from our hiring manager after probation period, after 3 or 6 months to check okay, how it went, did we ask about anything? Did the candidate from the past and now our employee needed more support? Did we, um, cover everything or maybe missed something? To learn actually all the time and covering all kind of scenarios that can possibly happen. So that's also helping a lot you know.

Paweł M: Mhm.

Paweł B: Yeah. If you all had to talk about— also we'll flip the script on you because you're also taking part in recruitments— is like, what do we look for at RED? Because I feel like a lot of people that we meet on the corridor, of course now we're a big company. It's also, it's not like it was back in the day where there was 300 and something people, when I was joining the company, I remember I knew everybody, but there is something like a common denominator that all of us have is that you see that these people are kind of your tribe, let's say, or your pack. So what do we look for in a candidate? You start.

Sebastian: I can actually start because you just reminded me of a conversation that I had with Ania, like, long time ago. I mean, like six years ago. Something like that. When I believe I approached Ania, and I just shared my kind of impression after, you know, uh, meeting of one of the employees, fresh employees that, uh, that I felt, and I believe that's the starter for me. Like, I want to believe that, and I want and I trust people that actually take care of recruitment. But generally the directors that also take part of it, that our common denominator is culture. So, you know, I can see let's say, a newcomer for the really first time. But I want to trust that this person, that stands next to me and also makes a coffee. It's that we've—

Ania: We share the values.

Sebastian: Never had a chance to talk even. But I have a trust that we kind of, you know, the common denominator is, yeah, the culture kind of a thing. Right. That we are here because there is some purpose. Right. And I have the trust in that and that makes me like super this, this sense of belonging and kind of security, like, you know, that makes me feel really good about that fact. And I think that's the most important thing because to be very honest, like from some time, like I'm taking part of rather like in the end of the recruitment process and high-profile candidates. But I have a trust also that every single person that was before me, they already checked the skill, checked the CV. And the fun fact is that whenever I I am a part of interview, I'm kind of in a role of being literally for the person that we are hiring. So I'm here to really answer all the questions I can possibly answer. That's one thing, and my role is to make this person feel comfortable, to speak up absolutely in the most honest way. And at the same time, you know, it's not a regular, I would say, typical interview process anymore, at least for me, at that stage. So I really like it because I have this feeling that first of all, it's trust. And second thing, I believe in the process that after, let's say, a couple of interviews all together, it is an entire holistic perspective of... and we can really make an educated call. And the person that is applying also can make an educated call, because we try to share as much as possible. Right?

Ania: That's right.

Paweł B: What does the art director look for?

Paweł M: Oh, it depends on which—

Paweł B: Because I feel like it's a difficult task because either artists copy stuff which they think are kind of cool, or they develop their own style, which is a little bit difficult, which is of course based off of something. But is it like you sometimes see a portfolio like, wow, the the level is incredible and you compare it to, I don't know, the industry a couple of years back or the industry now, or what can possibly happen in the future. Like it feels like it's kind of, you know, you're you're riding a train, but you're building the tracks at the same time.

Paweł M: Well, it's a broad question because, for example, only in art we have like 14 different specializations. So for each of them you have to slightly adjust what you're exactly looking for. You know, different values, different types of— in one role, the technical skills are the most important and others the artistic aspect kind of, you know, and this kind of artistic soul, it's important. So even within concept art we have we have concept artists and illustrators. Uh, you know, not not every company, um, makes a distinction between those two, but we are quite heavily specialized within RED. So with illustration, illustrator, this artistic skill, I mean this quality level that you can achieve of course, the rendering quality, this is very important part. The composition, the light, the colors. If you're a concept artist, those things are not that important. What's important is the idea, you know, can you think out of the box? Do you look for your work is not just another stuff from Artstation, but it presents something fresh, new, creative, something that is not maybe well executed because you don't have to do that. You just need to, you know, infuse this, share the idea with someone, which is, oh, my God, that's that's incredible. You know, just so it heavily depends, but it's creativeness, I guess. Always the biggest value in art.

Paweł B: Do you think also the ability to take critique and, uh, work on iterations and stuff like that?

Paweł M: That's a whole—

Paweł B: other aspect. Putting ego to the side, right?

Paweł M: I think it's, uh, it's not only art. Because this whole feedback culture like how you can give feedback, how you can receive feedback, how you communicate and work within your environment. This is something super important and also very hard to figure out in the recruitment process, because, you know, it can happen that you have a candidate that is incredibly skilled, but this person is really not willing to collaborate with others. It's like a soloist, you know, quite often such people, for example, end up being freelancers because they feel comfortable when they work alone. They have one person to contact with that gives feedback. And just 90% of their time work on the concept art, on the work that they are scheduled to do. While being in the office even if you're a concept artist, you are at this beginning. You're always just creatively invent the world, build it. Still majority, I would say 30% of your time you should spend talking with people, asking questions, collaborating. When you do a concept art, I always say to concept artists, your work on concept art ends when the character that was made later in the pipeline by by character artists, riggers, animators, end up in the game. This is end of your work. It's not like when you draw something and you send it in, that's it for you. No, you have to participate actively, proactively take part in the whole rest of the process to make sure that your idea is conveyed till the very end.

Sebastian: Yeah, your game isn't Artstation, right? Exactly, exactly. It's experience, this is what counts.

Paweł B: Yeah. And also holistic approach in this case because you're seeing the whole thing.

Sebastian: Yeah.

Paweł B: When it comes to the recruitment point of view, like going through candidates and stuff like that, like what's the thing that you start when it comes to looking for specific things?

Ania: You're probably asking about CV and this entry level of checking the candidates.

Paweł B: Also but overall kind of the culture that we're kind of, and the personalities that we're looking for.

Ania: So maybe I'm going to start with the bigger picture because Seba already opened it a little bit. Um, I really believe that especially if you're applying for entry level or, I don't know, beginning of your career. If you have ambition and you have some set of skills and you really want to do it, the rest you can learn. But something that it's hard to learn, uh, hard to gain is these values that you represent. And this is what we are focusing on. And I totally agree with Seba that we are very open with what we represent as a company and what we represent as a people here, and what kind of values we want to share with the world and our players. And gamers all over. So, this is the most important part really, and that we cannot skip and we cannot close eyes for that. So this is given. And this is the the first step. Um, fully honest, I'm really, really checking always the ambition. because that was my— seriously, I remember the moment when I started in the company many, many, many years ago. And after one social, um, Friday, um, I was already putting my coat and looking on the people in the room. They were talking about, you know, game and so on. And I had a feeling that I never had in my whole, you know, experience in any company. I look at them and felt like, oh, my God, they're so ambitious. Yeah, they really want to do that. And I think you can feel that on the corridors. And if you really want to do the game, if you really want to be with us and you really want to, you know, take time and learn new things, then you're going to fit and that's it. The rest is only your ambition to learn. So being ambitious is one of our values and it's super important from my perspective. Like it's really close to my heart. But if we're talking about more like technical arenas, let's say. We're always looking. If the people want to share their experience of what they actually did. So in terms of art, we're looking at portfolios. We're checking what they're sharing. Uh, we're checking the codes. Uh, we're checking their extra projects because, to be honest, the most complicated recruitments are for the lower levels. Interns, juniors, specialists, because they don't have so much things in the CV. But, um, I remember personally hiring people that have almost none of professional experience, but they did such an amazing things on their studies in some subgroups, creating some games by their own on Unity or whatever. And they're still with us and they're leads and experts. Seriously, uh, and this is it. So we're looking if the people want to share with us what they actually working on. And this is something that we're looking for.

Paweł B: Very nice.

Sebastian: Yeah. I think also let's talk about this funny not funny things that are maintain unchanged. Because I remember when I was like for the very first time trying to kind of, you know, jump into industry. There were like Reddit threads, literally, people are still asking the same questions they've been asking 20 years ago. Like, what CD PROJEKT RED is looking for? Uh, how to prepare my portfolio. Uh, you know, like these are—

Paweł B: How I get my foot in the door?

Sebastian: Exactly. Like, these are the same questions you have. The internet is full of answers, but I remember it would be really great, I believe that it would be really great to talk about this. Particular questions that you constantly hear from people, you hear on the festivals, uh, you hear from, you know, all over. And all of us, like top five questions that just to address, but from the RED point of view, right? Because I believe something that changed is exactly what you said, Ania, that what really changed at RED, at least for me, is like in the last decade is that we are super also like attitude-focused. I mean, like we scan the attitude, we scan the culture fit like like especially since the pandemic when you have the hybrid and, you know, you're literally— it's not about controlling people, it's not about controlling teams. It's about trust. And to trust you know, you need to have people around you and the teams that are like having one goal, a vision, you know, like they contribute to the same vision. So the attitude is absolutely necessary. But there are several questions that people actually ask forever since I remember. So let's talk about these questions. Let's talk about the RED perspective of maybe I'm going gonna start, portfolio. What are you looking for? I want to be a Cyberpunk team, I create weapons. What should I do? What? How? You know, what's the focus?

Paweł M: Uh, before I start with this, I would like to add to what you said. Super important that you're, we are increasing the chances that people we hire will very well collaborate and create this trustful, respectful team and work together well. So this is about, you know, just increasing the chances just by scanning people and making sure that they fit the rest. Um, in the portfolio. First of all, a few guidelines I'm giving you on the, especially on Promised Land. It's a great experience because, you know, people usually very fresh people who are not yet in the industry, they're coming over showing what they have, you know, and asking for advice. Basically, it's usually not about how do I get into the project, but you know, what kind of path should I take? What should I start working on in years to come to become a candidate? So first of all, the portfolio doesn't have to be large. It's actually better if it's small, very condensed. It's also part of the challenge for a candidate. Can you actually select from whatever you did, which are the most important, most valuable things for you?

Sebastian: And just pardon me, Paweł, because I believe that this is this is what changed a little bit over the last decade. I remember getting portfolios like in the form of book, and you were like, you know, you were like—

Paweł M: Here's my art book.

Sebastian: And you have like 300 concepts. And it's like, it's not a thing anymore, actually.

Paweł M: And also you're not helping yourself with sending everything you have because usually there's some better stuff, there's some more medical work, something you haven't finished, you're not very proud of. And still some people think the more they send is better. No, it's actually, you know, just show your maximum potential.

Sebastian: Quality over quantity.

Paweł M: What you think you you are best at what you think is best. So it's not about, it's never about quantity. Someone sends two works and three works. It can be good enough for me to judge that. I would like to talk with the people and this person and move forward to the test. For example, you know, test is something how we can, if you're not sure that the person the portfolio is not complete enough, we can if it has potential, we can then test the candidate.

Sebastian: And you can also check how such person, let's say, works around the feedback, etc.

Paweł B: Also timeframe, right?

Ania: Yeah. And the time frame.

Paweł M: However we're not always doing that of course. But you know there are cases because you know, people are also busy. Not everybody has time. And also under this limited time pressure, usually working somewhere else, people are not unable to show their full potential creating this test within two weeks, for example. Because they have only one weekend to do it. Uh, the other thing about portfolio is, um, there are two sides of portfolio, which are not great for me. One side is that you are showing too much, too large spectrum, so you don't really know who you want to be. And there's some movie I did, there's some concept art, there's a 3D model, you know, oh, I like cars, but here's a character and I make photographies of, you know, so it's best, you know, no one is great at all of those things. You need to specialize. And usually people don't love all those things. They feel passion for only one thing.

Sebastian: There was only one Leonardo da Vinci.

Paweł M: Absolutely. Only he could do that. But he had his, you know, helpers.

Sebastian: Yeah, exactly.

Paweł M: But it's answer yourself a question, what do you love? What's your passion? What do you want to do? This is very important. On the other spectrum there is like portfolio, which are very, you know, uh, for example, only if you want to go for a weapon artist, it's okay to have only weapons. But for example, if you want to be a character artist or a concept artist, if you are sending me, you know, ten pictures of manga stylized characters, for example, or only sci-fi characters, that to me is a signal. Even if you're very, very good. The signal is that you're not very flexible. You know, you don't know how to move between genres. Maybe it will be a problem of adapting your style to our needs, etc. Maybe you're so convinced that this is the one thing you should do, and we will not teach you anything more. So something in the middle, showing a portfolio that's focused on the area you want to work on, but presenting also a spectrum of, you know, works that within that area.

Ania: I would add that portfolio that is also adequate to the job that you're applying for. Exactly. Because also when I'm talking on Promised Land with young people or something like that, they do exactly what you're saying. Um, and if if we're doing only real characters, like, real people and you see realistic and you see only manga, then you cannot actually tell. You can't tell. And I think that this is the main problem with the first stage of the recruitment, that sometimes recruiters cannot tell and none of us cannot tell. And before candidates gonna tell us actually, or show us by CV, by experience, by portfolio, by reels, by whatever, we cannot tell and we cannot guess. So we base it on the data that we actually have. The work that we actually see. So this is the most important.

Sebastian: I remember Kacper, he's currently Environmental Director in Boston studio. Right. Working for Cyberpunk 2. And...

Sebastian: Yeah, Kacper Niepokólczycki. So greetings, Kacper. Uh, but I really remember when he applied. It was already a long time ago. But the way, actually, he prepared himself for his portfolio. It was actually just three pieces. One, it was Witcher-y. The second one was Cyberpunk, and the third one was inspired by The Last of Us, which was kind of post-apocalyptic kind of vibe. There you go. And that's it. And you like, that was a bullseye. You know what I mean? It's exactly what you said, spectrum, but at the same time, adequate and flexible. Exactly. Like, that's, you know, like a surgeon. You know what I mean?

Paweł B: No, but it's like going for specific things. It's tailored to the job position that you're going for, but it's also showing that you have a little bit of range. But it's still sticking to, let's say, the game worlds that excite us.

Sebastian: Plus you understand the language, right? The design language, the vibe, the tone. So that's also super important. Uh, I also remember from the animation standpoint, it used to be like two up to three minutes portfolio. Right now it's maximum one minute. But the thing that hasn't changed, put the best piece at the beginning and the second best piece in the end.

Paweł B: Short attention span. Like you need to start with a banger and end also with one because sometimes people just don't go through the whole thing. They just see the beginning and the end, and those are the things that you remember. You always remember how things start and how they end, because that stays in your mind.

Sebastian: Yeah, exactly. All right. But when it comes to attitude, when you talk to people and you actually share this perspective of, hey, you're going to be a team member, there are going to be people around you. What are the questions? How do you understand? How do you actually scan and ask questions regarding feedback or regarding a contributor? Someone that needs to like add to the process rather than, you know, replace, and stuff like that, like this entire collaboration that is necessary in projects, especially at RED, with projects that are like, you know, having 500 people on the board, like doing one thing, like how do you actually talk it through with the candidate?

Ania: Okay. So basically we're asking about actual situation and behaviors. It's not a self-description interview. So what would you do in this kind of situation. Uh, we're asking about specific cases. Tell us about this case, tell us about that case. And it's showing a lot, um, how people behave in this kind of situation. And also it gives more natural flow to the interview and actually releases a lot of, a little bit of stress from the candidate because they're talking about something that they actually know, they experienced that, they're talking about specific situation and specific group on specific project. So many times I had a case, that candidate was very stressed. You all can imagine that, we all were there. I'm still stressed when I'm going to interview when I'm interviewer. You know, so I can understand that. And when we start talking and asking, okay, so did you have this kind of situation ever in your life? Oh yeah, I had. Can you tell us what you were doing, what kind of project you're working on? And then the eyes, just like starts in the eyes, light increase and like, okay, so I was doing that and I was doing that. I had this problem, and they're not so stressed. They're really talking about what they experience, how they manage this kind of stuff. We as recruiters and hiring managers because they also know how to do it, and asking some helpful questions to get deeper into this conversation. I must say the most, um, satisfaction is when the candidates sometimes like, huh, I didn't think about it and I know why I did it or I know why I behave like that, or how I can change something in my behavior. So we're not asking about theory. We're asking about real life or about something that you experience really, really experience. And I think that's showing the most of the potential and how people react. And this is as easy as it is.

Sebastian: Mhm. Awesome.

Paweł M: So shows how open they are actually for conversation you know just—

Ania: Oh yeah of course.

Paweł M: How easy it is for them.

Paweł B: It's also good because by the end of the interview the candidate, uh you leave always space for them to ask questions. And I always love questions like, how would my day to day look like? Or how does the normal like Monday look for your team? And then you explain, like we have a sync in the morning and then we do these tasks, and then we also share them with someone. And then it's this and then it's that and they're like, oh, it's like they really like start understanding like what what the process is. And then they ask follow-up questions. So that means I'll be reporting to this person or to this person, or will I be collaborating with you or with someone else? And it's like you start mapping out the playing field and they start, you see that they start understanding that.

Ania: And you actually said very important thing that we're also talking how it looks like. We answered the questions. I'm always saying that it's not a one-way street. It's not we, you know, choosing—

Paweł B: We are there to grill you. Tell me everything.

Ania: We're choosing our next employee. This person also need to choose us. And this is like two-way street and we both need to agree that, yeah, this is the person I want to work with and the person need to agree. Okay, this is the company, the studio, the people I want to work with. It's not working other way. So they need to have the opportunity and a safe space to ask all the questions that they actually are bothered, um, about and get the answers. So, um, this is super important from my perspective that it's dialog, not just simple interview by asking and answering questions, doing tests or whatever. Um, this is why we have sometimes like panels or on-site interviews where we're spending the whole day with this person. We're showing the studio, we're going for lunch, you know, we're showing what we have here and how we work on daily basis. Because let's be honest, this is a very important decision in their lives. Uh, and sometimes we're relocating the whole families, you know, like taking them from one part of the world and relocating to another one. And from our recruiters' perspective, we want to be sure that both parties made a good decision.

Sebastian: Responsibility, right?

Ania: It's a huge responsibility. Like it's really huge responsibility to be sure. So yeah.

Paweł M: That's true because you know, also within different companies, the people, kind of same roles can work in a different way. There's different expectations. Right. And not always it's all clearly written in the recruitment notice for example. So uh, it's absolutely true. And you know, having a candidate that comes to the work and he's like surprised what he'll be doing now, you know, in what kind of setup he'll be working. That's not a great situation. And also asking this question is a great part. I love this in the whole recruitment process, candidates asking questions. It also tells me a lot about the person, you know. The worst case is I have no questions. So you're not curious. You know, you're not. It also tells me something about a candidate that—

Ania: You know, sometimes it's stressful.

Paweł B: Sometimes it's hard, because you're starstruck sometimes. I know from my perspective, like I remember my first interview was with Marcin Momot when I was joining, and he was the person that replied to me on a forum when I had a bug in The Witcher 3, right? So I was it was incredible for me to see him for the first time, let alone talk to him. And the conversation was really cool because we mainly talked about The Witcher, we talked about games, we talked about social media. So it's all things that I knew at that time. But I was coming into, uh, an assistant position in the community team. So I was like, what should I expect? Do they want me to be a good writer? Do they want me to know The Witcher very well? And then, you know, the conversation was a two-way street. I would ask him questions, he would ask me questions. And it felt like a very good, sincere conversation. But you're also starstruck because I knew the guy, and I know he's been in the company for a long time. So it was like, ah, you know, should I be as open to ask questions? But I feel like if you get into the zone and you start talking with the person that is potentially hiring you, it's like if it's a good fit, you'll feel that it's a good fit. There is a vibe. You're kind of calibrated very quickly in the moment when you start talking. And then it's like it becomes natural, it becomes second nature. So, yeah. Yeah.

Sebastian: All right. Because we've been talking about insights and what to do. And what are the top three of what not to do during the recruitment.

Ania: Not to do. I can start.

Paweł B: Don't be late. Go for it.

Ania: Don't be late. Yeah, it would be nice. Let's be honest. Don't be late. But, um, actually, uh be prepared. I'm not expecting, like, over preparing candidates, you know, like, checking everything we did, but, uh, check our values. We have a very nice, you know, career site. Yeah, we mapped them out. There are some Q&A that you can read. So this base information should be gathered. Um, the next one, I think it's—

Paweł M: Can we stop there for a second? Because I did have a few candidates who never played our games and know nothing about them, you know, and that surprises me because we're going for an interview to a company. I don't expect everyone to be crazy gamers.

Sebastian: Here's the medal.

Paweł M: Yeah, finish all the games. At least try it. Have an opinion, you know. But if you're openly saying, no, I never played your games like so what you're doing here?

Ania: The next question, why you want to work for us? Yeah I can imagine that. So been there, done that. Um, so yeah, be prepared. And my next one was and actually this is aligning to yours. Know what you want to do here. So, to be honest, one of the worst scenarios is that person applying for one position. We're talking about it. And then during the whole interview, it's like, I don't really know if I want to do weapons, maybe I want to do enviro, or maybe I want to do rendering, or maybe I want to go to community, like, you know, whatever. Yeah, it's showing me that, to be honest, you don't really know what you want to do with your life. And it's going to be hard here in this case.

Paweł M: But we have many situations in our company where people were just jumping between departments, like just given like our game director from The Witcher 3 was from QA, right? As well as, uh—

Ania: But this is growth and development during the process. But if you're going into the interview and you're just starting and you even don't know when you want to start, then it's showing me that maybe you didn't think it through. Um, the growth and changing departments. I think that this is amazing and this is natural way, how the company should grow and grow their people. And this is normal stuff. And I expect that from the company that it's going to happen. Uh, but at the start, maybe let's figure it out. Like why we are we actually here and what are our expectations of each other, basically?

Paweł M: Yeah. Also, once I heard from a candidate, "You know, honestly, "I would like to work for Pixar, but I need to build my "portfolio, so I'm here."

Ania: At least honest.

Paweł M: At least honest. I mean—

Paweł B: Honesty, it's important.

Paweł M: Maybe you shouldn't have to share that, but I understand it at some point. But I have other candidates that would love to work here. So...

Ania: Unfortunately.

Paweł B: And he or she showed a platinum screenshot with her gamertag saying like, yeah, I beat Witcher.

Ania: And Witcher medallion.

Paweł B: Witcher medallion on the, on the. I think you can also sometimes like overdo it, right? Like, sometimes I feel like people just want to join our company because they think we're cool, and that's pretty much it. And then and like you said, lack of like a direction. I think it's the biggest thing. Like if you don't know precisely what you want to do, but you just want to join the company because it feels like it's fun and cool. Well, it's, you know, it's not helping that person. It's not helping us. It's not helping anybody because lack of direction always leads to either still being stuck in a rut and not knowing where to go. And I think what's cool about RED is that you can pretty much like you all said, like you can move from different departments.

Ania: You can grow.

Paweł B: To different things and you can grow within the company, but you just have to kind of think like what you want to do. Like, what's your North Star that kind of guides you forward? And once you have that, like we're very open to kind of say like, okay, do what you want. You're good at this. We'll totally support you throughout the process. So just go for it. Yeah. What's a no-go for you, Sebastian?

Sebastian: I think you've mentioned all of them. No-go for me for sure from this attitude perspective is when I see someone who like, super lacks this humbleness and super stubborn, and it's like, you know, you can tell that, oh my God, it's going to be tough because, you know, generally we must say that there is some cost behind, like let's be honest, right. There's a cost of like being ambitious, being resilient, making games like with that scale and stuff that requires a lot of resiliency. That requires a lot of feedback. That requires like a tough skin at some point. Tough skin comes from empiricism, like from time. As soon as you understand that feedback loop is actually making your work better, then you start trusting the process, right? Like that you see, okay, it used to be this and now it's this. Wow. Right? So but if you have someone that is like, you know, a star, you know, and the only thing you see that you want him or her like to light up the entire like—

Paweł B: Want the spotlight on that person all the time.

Sebastian: And the team is somewhere there in the shadow, right? You know what I mean? Never works. Actually never works. It can work a sprint, a milestone. But at some point, there's this kind of truth will always come on the surface and it will break up like that's that's always and it's a problem. So I try to also always like to have my scanner, let's say, on that part, because in the end of the day I'm responsible for building healthy teams. So like, and ambitious healthy teams. And that's like combination. It's because we are not having a startup here, you know what I mean. Like there's not a vibe from, you kind of mentioned deadlines, right. You know, you have creative work, deadline, and combination with ambition and that all together it is a demanding, uh, kind of environment. So you look for people—

Paweł B: You need to deliver, right?

Sebastian: But you look for people that are, like, really responsible, passionate at the same time. Ambitious. Like, that's, that's, as soon as you hit that and like, just what Ania said like skill or like it will come with time. That's why I love, I have this kind of, I used to have. But you remember we also had this conversation. But since I remember, since I started building teams, I had this rule that I need to always have at least one young blood in a team like super talented, passionate, humble person in a team because it kind of shows off everyone that, you know, the skill is a matter of time. But it's just a matter of time. But the humbleness and the attitude, you have it or not and you can also lose it, uh, during your period because you can burn out, whatever. So if you look for motivation, inspiration and you are lacking discipline, right. You know, it's also like that's really very interesting. Very, very, very, interesting subject.

Paweł B: I'm happy that you mentioned the young blood here. I'll actually touch that point. Um—

Sebastian: We just finished the internship program. I love it. I love that we are doing it.

Paweł B: Because I feel like, you know, you can have industry veterans, people working here for X amount of years. But I think from time to time, we all need a reality check where someone comes in with a different perspective, different view, different approach to to life. Uh, I see from young candidates who are very open. They ask a lot of questions. They're very eager to do things. They're, you know—

Ania: They're brave.

Paweł M: Because they don't know yet.

Paweł B: Exactly. And they also bring a fresh perspective. And I think we sometimes lack that fresh perspective because we've been here for such a long time. Like I was talking among colleagues recently that I remember the day when I joined the company. I remember that everything felt so fresh, so new that, you know, there's so many possibilities. And then you are in the company for X amount of years. For me it's 10 and after 10 years you look at yourself, you kind of lose that. You know that openness to, to like take things in and then you have someone who comes with this and is like a sponge that is able to pretty much accumulate all that things. And the energy that person brings, he or she is pushing the energy out of him back to you, which makes you kind of become younger. So it's like Benjamin Button kind of you're getting younger because you're being kind of surrounded by younger people, right? Yeah. It's incredible.

Sebastian: This is similar to the concept of you most probably guys you are familiar with with this reverse mentoring, like you have an old dog 50 years, you know, already 30 years in the industry and you have someone that just entered the industry. But, you know, like this person, it's not only that, you know, such a young person just brings an entirely different perspective, you know, and if you— that's interesting. But the thing is that it requires to be super open minded and curious, from an old dog to even just to listen. You know what I mean? And I think this is also what we're trying to, you know, this environment here at RED that because we try to always like push the bar. It requires from you to be super open minded, like. And you know what I mean?

Ania: I think this is very important what you're saying right now, because we also talked about, we recruited a lot in the past together. So basically we had this conversation that the vibe in RED is that actually you are not afraid to go to anybody to share your idea or your doubts or your whatever you have. And it doesn't matter who it is. And nobody looks at it like, oh, you are not on such level that I can listen to you. Whatever. No, there is not such an attitude in in RED. And I think it's opened a lot of minds.

Paweł M: That's our values, right. Transparency and trust.

Ania: Yeah.

Sebastian: We're all gamers. In the end of the day, you know, you after work, you play a game and you want to just simply experience it and any experience is valuable. So let's talk about them. So yeah, awesome. Awesome.

Paweł B: I remember it was funny, uh, back in the day when we were working on Thronebreaker. I remember Adam Badowski coming to me on the corridor asking me, like, so you saw the game. It was before release. I'm like, yeah. "So what do you think of it?" I'm like, I like this aspect, I like this. This maybe should be a little bit different. He's like, yeah, thank you. That's actually super valuable. Like to have your point of view because my perspective is from a gamer. So it was that I gave my perspective. I was surprised that he asked me for my opinion. Like he's joint CEO now, but he was Head of the Studio at the time. It was like, why are you asking me?

Sebastian: And then I had to change it. It's crazy, right? Like, if you think about it like this

Paweł B: ability to to be not very like stuck in your way, but also be very open to listening to others and kind of seeing their perspective and also asking for their perspective. You feel valued. You feel important. You feel like you know you have a voice instead of just being, you know, I come here 9 to 5. Check in, check out. This is also why—

Paweł M: We are introducing the multidisciplinary teams working on the quest and on the games, right? So we have multiple perspectives and all these fresh ideas and people that have a space to actually be present and be taken into account. So we get away from this linear structure, you know, pyramid where there's only a boss director propagating all his ideas downwards. So we no longer do that. And that's I think it's a great value in this.

Paweł B: Yeah. All this stuff going back and forth, up and down, up and down, instead of just going from the top all the way down. Yeah. Yeah. It's super important.

Sebastian: Great. Yeah.

Paweł B: Let's talk about culture. Um, what do you think defines our culture? Because I also hear a lot of people say, um, especially fresh faces that join the company they talk about actually AnsweRED as being the podcast that they listen to, to kind of learn about the vibe and within teams that they potentially want to join. And then they're like, oh, the podcast is really cool because I kind of know how you guys operate because you talk about your teams. So let's talk about culture. If we could like, name it or put it into words like, what would you say is RED culture? What are we defined by?

Ania: Are you all looking at me? I can start, I can start, um, to be honest—-

Sebastian: Part of your job is being in employer branding.

Ania: I know, I know. Actually, this is quite an easy question for me because this is the question that candidates ask many times during the interviews. I cannot count how many. And also, I never had a problem with answering that because every time I was asked like, okay, what RED is, uh, I have one, um, answer, uh, in my mind, like the first is the constant change. And, uh, this is very crucial. And I always explain that a little bit further, that in my perspective, this is amazing. Uh, since like ten years, I feel sometimes that I worked in ten different companies, we, sit in many different spaces in the studio. The studio changed so much the amount of people that we're hiring, um, that we're growing, that now we have, like, all these procedures and systems, and our work is maturing. Yeah, exactly. This is a perfect, perfect description. Uh, but this change is constant, and you never feel bored. You always have something new, you can grow yeah? When I remember my work, how I was working here, what was my daily responsibilities 10 years ago? Nine, eight, seven. These are totally different to what I'm doing right now. And this is amazing that all the time I can take different project, different initiative. I can grow, I can learn something new. Not just, you know, sit somewhere behind some desk and like, okay, so this is the fifth year of doing exactly the same process. So this constant change from my perspective is amazing. But also what I always explain to candidates that people are different and we all are very different and have different needs. And this is something that I also underline to the candidates, think through if this is something that you expect from your work environment, because this is not for everybody, and this change is not going to stop in RED because we always have ambition to be better, better, better, having something new, something more and so on. So if this is something in your right now pace of your life or in general, this is not what you feel well in, you shouldn't be joining. But if you're looking for this thrill every day or every week, this is the amazing, amazing place for you. So for me, this is it. And I never felt bored here, to be honest and absolutely true. It's just, you know constant change.

Paweł M: I always joke that I don't have to change company because company is changing around me. Every project is like a new company.

Sebastian: That's a good one. Absolutely true.

Paweł B: What else would you add to the culture part?

Paweł M: Well, all those values we just mentioned, you know, just being ambitious, resilient, transparent, respectful, being a player and thinking about players. It's all, you know, it's our core DNA and we work like that. We have a very varied team made from multidisciplinary people from multiple countries all over the world.

Sebastian: We have like 50 nationalities or something.

Paweł M: So diversity is incredible here. And uh, those people are coming from different cultures, right? But they all speak the same language here. So this is amazing. And sometimes you have to also adapt to it, right?

Ania: Yeah that's true. Sometimes it's tricky guys, because this is so many people and so many different ideas and everyone wants to share their idea. And uh, and it's a very creative environment. But in the end, I think it's, really great and it's priceless, to be honest, to be in such a kind of, uh, industry because this is the whole industry. That it's so creative.

Paweł B: Yeah, I always love that we're very transparent and very open to, to gamers, which I think is not not something that you always see. Like sometimes you just see pretty much you work on something and then you are done with the development on the project. And the project, you know, is pretty much published. End of story. Like we always go back, like with Cyberpunk, with Witcher, we always go back. We always do patches. We always listen to feedback that is coming from players. We implement that feedback. We have people who are in game director roles, who are on Reddit, who are listening to what players are writing, what they're saying, what their needs are. And I think that's that's always been something that RED is very well and we've always been doing this. It's kind of something that this doesn't change. It's in our core DNA. It has been part of this company, and I feel like it's one of those values that like whenever, like I would never think about it. The same with like all the other values that we have. I would never think about values back in the day, but they were there, but we just didn't name them. And then when we named them, they're like, oh shit, these things are actually, you know, the things that we see on a day to day and these are the things that define us. So it's very, very well said.

Ania: But I think this is because we never, I never had a feeling that we're doing games to just do games or to publish them or to sell them. Yeah, we always do games to give fun and entertainment and to get the sparkle in the eyes. In gamers' eyes. And I think this is the main clue. Yeah? That, uh—

Sebastian: We do care.

Ania: We do care.

Sebastian: We do care about people, games and generally even the community. Like entire, like cycle. Like there is this depth in caring. Uh, and I think this is something very unique about it.

Paweł M: But it's coming from the top. You know, all my time here, I never felt we are business driven. So it's all about money, you know, it's about making games. And Adam Badowski, our CEO, is clearly communicating, communicating that and even all the failures we did in our history, they were because we were too ambitious. You know, we just did not manage to fulfill the ambition we had. Uh, but it was always pushing forward. Every single project we are doing is like, we're not creating the same game. It's always something different, you know, which—

Sebastian: Must be innovating.

Paweł M: Witcher 2? Two paths. Witcher 3, first open world, Cyberpunk FP, you know, first person perspective with this incredible dialog system.

Sebastian: Witcher 4, sci fi.

Paweł M: You're not supposed to say that!

Paweł B: Yeah, but it's always pushing. Kind of like moving the goalposts a little bit further, a little bit further for ourselves.

Sebastian: Like this innovation, innovative aspect of every, game, like whatever you call—

Paweł M: New engine every time.

Sebastian: But it's always a part. It's a must. It's a kind of must part of every project. And that actually always implies many other changes. And it's, you know, it's at some point it becomes a snowball effect. So that's why it's always new. Like I remember we had this discussion for like before, uh, the very, very, very early pre-production of cyberpunk. And it was always driven by experience. I remember like, yeah, let's, let's do, let's say third person, right? No. If you want to really feel that Night City is kind of swallowing you. It's the biggest antagonist. You need to feel it, so it needs to be overwhelming. So first person. But we've never made the first person game. So we'll make it.

Paweł B: Learn how to do it.

Sebastian: Yeah, let's learn how to do it.

Ania: Let's Google it.

Sebastian: Exactly, it's like driven by the ultimate experience we want to create. Uh, so there's no limits. You know, this is the goal. And this is crazy because, you know, it can sound like—

Paweł M: Sometimes it is.

Sebastian: But I love it. You know, I love it.

Ania: Constant change.

Paweł B: I think we also have as a company this, at least from the outside, I think we can be seen as having super high standards. But I think it's the standards that we also kind of held ourselves to these standards, like it's not only standards that we project outside by saying like, oh, we want to be ambitious, or we want to make revolutionary RPGs that inspire gamers, right? We don't say it for the sake of saying it, but these are things that we expect from ourselves. And I think it's super important to have that and to people so they actually understand that this is kind of our mission and how we want to move forward. You kind of touched about the industry, and I want to kind of, before we come to the end of this episode, is like, why would you think that game dev is an interesting and cool industry to work in?

Ania: Because we're doing fun. So it's like, to be honest, like, I have a daughter and it's, uh, it's so great when I see that she turned on the console and actually she's playing Witcher right now. Yeah, yeah.

Paweł M: Is she old enough?

Ania: Yes, yes, yes.

Sebastian: She's Team Yenn or Team Triss?

Ania: We are not there yet.

Paweł B: Witcher 3, right? Okay, good.

Ania: Wild Hunt. So she's running downstairs like, I forgot how to call the horse. How to call the horse? I said, like I don't remember, I don't remember. So this is what you're giving working here and you're working in the game industry, that fun. And it's bonding. And it has so many stories. Not only our games, games in general. And sometimes when you're meeting somebody you start a conversation about games and they have the same passion and they have the same thoughts about the game that you love. And uh, sometimes this is also like the stop for you, the pause button. You're playing something after the long day at work or, I don't know, with your kids or wherever. Uh, and you just turn on the game and you're in a different world, and you can focus on yourself and on your needs and have some thoughts about what you're seeing on the screen. And I think working in this industry is just amazing, because you're giving that what you're experiencing by yourself to many, many people all over the world. And it doesn't matter where you are, what language you speak. You still can get immersed into the story and find something for yourself. And this is something that 's super, super important, beneficial for me. And I think for many candidates, I must say that I never had an interview with any candidate, and I made hundreds, thousands of them where I didn't ask, like, hey, do you play video games? And what kind? Yeah, this is the favorite part of the interview. And, um, then we can talk a little bit, you know, like, okay, what were your impressions? Why this game? One other game. So many games I played because somebody recommended that to me. Uh, and I think doing entertainment, it's just super beneficial. And seeing our families, our friends enjoying that. And, uh, they are also super excited that we are working in this industry. This is just amazing and it gives you the warm feeling inside.

Paweł B: Yeah, yeah.

Paweł M: To me it's building worlds, you know. So it's never just a job. You know, it's not like you're coming to the office eight hours after going back. It's like you're putting part of your life, your creativity, your passion, you know, everything you know, you experience in your life into this product, in the world you're creating. And it's just just amazing. You know, I don't imagine what other job can give me that, you know? And after so many years, it still drives me, you know, because there are different worlds. And we expanded them and we play with them. So it's an infinitely creative process that gives a lot of joy.

Paweł B: Beautiful. Sebastian.

Sebastian: Oh, they said it all. I mean, you know, maybe I'll try to answer from a completely different perspective. I mean, like, you know, sometimes I ask myself, is it possible to actually work in a different industry? And my initial answer is always no. It's like obviously no. But then I have this spark, it's like, maybe Lego. Maybe, you know?

Ania: But I would need to check.

Sebastian: And that's it. The short list is done, you know, like it's done. Yeah, I like what Paweł said. What Ania said, like, that's pure fun. That's creating an experience. That's adding a lot of depth. Like, you know, the message, the world, like guys, what we do is, uh, it's a miracle. I mean, you know, you make this out of zeros and ones. How come?

Paweł B: Yeah. It's crazy.

Sebastian: Right? Like everything you see. This is it. So this is a miracle. And it's nice to actually make miracles, right?

Paweł B: It's a huge privilege. It's a huge privilege to actually be here and you know, get that.

Sebastian: Absolutely.

Paweł B: To be part of it is even crazy. It's something that we don't always take for granted. And the thing you said about entertainment, I think I said this numerous times, but I remember, uh, Adam Badowski in an interview once said that, and I was present during that interview. He's like, yeah, you know, because it's a very iterative process we go through. We talk with directors, we go through things. We also clash because, you know, we have our own opinions on things. But in the end everything gets heated. We stop and we say, why are we doing this? Well, we're doing this for other people's entertainment. Well, this is why we're doing it. So we should probably just, you know, take a step back and like, remember, in the end, this is for the player who's going to pick it up after work or on the weekend. And is just gonna enjoy it, be engaged in it. And that's—

Sebastian: Listen to Johnny, being polite. Yeah, exactly.

Paweł B: Or impolite. Okay, there's one last thing. Uh, to wrap things up. So Paweł is, of course, here to give his insight into recruitment from an Art Director perspective. But also, Paweł is here because we're switching things up a little bit. Uh, Sebastian will no longer be our co-host.

Sebastian: He's firing me.

Paweł B: Since as you probably know, we're working heavily on The Witcher 4 and Sebastian needs to focus on that so he has less and less time in his already busy calendar. Schedule, I want to say. So Sebastian, it's been incredible. I wanted to thank you. Uh, we did, I think 23 episodes plus, like an intro thing. Yeah. Although my math was never good, but I wanted to personally thank you because I feel like we learned a lot in this podcast. I think we grew together. You also grew a lot when it comes to just, you know, being in front of the camera, hosting and co-hosting. So it's been an incredible ride, man.

Sebastian: Yeah. Thank you so much. It was a blast and I'm super grateful for that. We kind of co-created it together with the team. And then, you know, I believe you know, we created with Paweł, Promised Land Art Festival. I trust this guy so much, I am sure that you're gonna handle it really well. I'm so happy that we did this. 23 episodes. I actually believe that we kind of covered, like, almost like, an entire cycle. And that's actually fun and pretty symbolic that we are— I'm ending it up with the recruitment one because it kind of covers it all up from the end up. Uh, yeah. Like, yeah. Really cool, really cool. I'm super happy. Uh, the next 23 episodes are gonna be also really good and worthy. I'm sure I'll be watching you. Um. But yeah, I need to really focus right now on making some miracles, right?

Paweł B: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you very much for that.

Sebastian: Thank you.

Paweł B: When it comes to you, like, what are your expectations heading in?

Paweł M: What are your expectations? I'm so flattered.

Paweł B: Your expectations, come on.

Paweł M: Very flattered. And thank you Seba for letting me do that. Um, I'll do my best, you know, to show you a glimpse of how RED is working. Uh, talk with amazing people we have here.

Paweł B: Totally now rebranded. Instead of the AnsweRED Podcast, the Paweł and Paweł show. Paweł Paweł podcast, say that quickly, three times, and then you know.

Paweł M: How to make it more confusing for the guests.

Paweł B: We just need more Pawełs in the room.

Sebastian: And you can invite only Pawełs.

Ania: From now on.

Paweł B: Exactly. And also, like Ania, like, thank you for letting us do this. Because, like, we're doing this apart of our normal jobs, like we have the possibility to co-create a podcast. That was an idea that came from the Employer Branding team, and we were able to do this super cool thing because like, we know the people who are surrounded by, we get inspired by everybody on a daily basis. Like you have these moments, I think almost at least weekly. I won't say daily because there are good and bad days as there are in any job, but you have these moments where you're like, what this person said? Freaking inspiring. I want this person on the podcast, and now we actually have this possibility to take these people, talk about the company, talk about our culture, and share it with the world, which I think is super awesome. And it's a huge privilege for all of us. So thank you for that.

Ania: I'm also very happy that we're doing that. I was so afraid at the beginning, you know, like if it's going to be, you know, anybody gonna watch that, listen to that. But 20-something episodes and it's going. And I truly believe that this is amazing and this is something that people really want to, um, share with us. And I must say that there is like my little dream come true, uh, within this podcast, so that it's not only us from RED, but there are also guests from all over different companies and people that are doing different things around game dev. And this is something that it's so amazing that we can share our experiences, um, through so many people and share it with the audience and the gamers. So, uh, thank you guys for doing that so much.

Sebastian: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Paweł B: I think it's a perfect place to end it.

Sebastian: Yeah, yeah.

Paweł B: Thank you all.

Ania: Thank you.

Sebastian: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for this episode. Uh, I am actually going to take this moment to say again, thank you so much for being with us for 24 episodes. As I'm stepping back, I need to focus on, Witcher 4, but also the goal from the very beginning was to actually start it up, make at least 20 episodes. It seems that you guys enjoy it. And we're gonna continue with Pawełs, uh, and most probably I'm going to to be part of it, uh, in the future. But on the second side of the wall sitting here.

Paweł B: Exactly what Sebastian said, I wanted to thank you once again for this opportunity. And as always, I wanted to remind you to comment, like and subscribe, all that jazz. Leave a comment, let us know what you're thinking about. And also I hope we'll get a lot of, "Bye Sebastian. "Thank you for your work on the podcast" in the comments, and we'll see you in the next episode.

Sebastian: See you guys.

Paweł B: Bye!

End of transcript